Subject
Ogburn a scholar? (fwd)
From
Date
Body
*** If I remember it correctly, Ogburn's first book on Shakespeare was
written back in the 1960s with his wife Dorothy who was then listed as its
primary author. Isn't he primarily a naturalist, writing about birds,
among other things and matters? Don Johnson probably knows him well in
that capacity. GD***
From: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Mr. Kartsev's letter raises more doubts about Nabokov as an
anti-Stratfordian than he intended, at least
from my admittedly lay perspective. The reason is his citation of
Charlton Ogburn, whom he pits against Schoenbaum.
In the spirit of Mr. Kartsev, I refer the interested few to
Schoenbaum's LIVES, which points out that Mr. Ogburn has defended the
Oxfordian position by rifling
through the plays and coming up with this or that quote to
bolster his position, each more strained than the next. For
example, Touchstone's statement in "As You
Like It" that "all your writers do consent that ipse is he; now,
you are not ipse, for I am he," Ogburn interprets as a
buried message from Oxford to the fraud Shaksper.
Not long ago, in a PBS documentary, another Oxfordian cited
Macbeth's "brief candle" speech as being Oxford's own world-weary
assessment for an artistic lifetime that would have to bear the
name of an ignorant glovemaker's son.
Doesn't this practice (perhaps unavoidable, from either side)
of ransacking fiction for facts of life smack of the very
psycho-scholarship (if not pseudo-scholarship) that Nabokov so contemned?
One message we hear over and over in the lectures is that works of art
are fairy tales and nothing more?
Another observation, for what it's worth: I won't attempt to
go head-to-head with Kartsev over Schoenbaum's scholarship.
However, his scrupulous attention to facts and his refusal to
embroider beyond what is known do indeed suggest to me a first-
rate teacher, and one the literalist Nabokov would certainly
favor.
Rodney Welch
Columbia, SC
Galya Diment wrote:
>
> From: "Peter A. Kartsev" <petr@glas.apc.org>
>
> Nabokov changing his opinion on the authorship of SLOVO (or on any other
> matter) in order to spite Roman Jakobson (or some other nonentity) is
> about as easy to believe as the illiterate oaf from Stratford writing
> HAMLET. I guess a case could also be made that VN wrote the poem
> "Shakespeare" (as well as all his other works, why not?) in order to
> spite Adamovich, Ivanov, Wilson and a succession of others. This,
> however, will be inconsistent with just about everything he ever wrote
> (thus making him an inveterate liar) and with everything we know about
> him. It seems rather more logical to suppose that with his aristocratic
> and individualistic view of art, the picture he drew in the poem would
> appeal to his imagination much more than that of Will Shakspere penning
> masterpieces casually and carelessly after a hard day of moneylending
> and debt collecting. In this respect, I think, Nabokov fits remarkably
> well with the dissenting group.
>
> And if this is "toying with anti-Stratfordianism", as somebody called
> it, then what Samuel Schoenbaum does is surely nothing more than toying
> with Stratfordianism. While Nabokov never names his candidate for the
> authorship, Schoenbaum et al. drag out the most preposterous candidate
> of all, the Stratford boor. The anti-Stratfordian contention, by the
> way, is NOT that William Shakespeare did not write the plays. The
> heretics only maintain that there is absolutely no proof that whoever
> chose to hide behind that name and William Shakspere of Stratford are
> one and the same. This subtle difference with all its implications has
> to be understood by anyone who is interested in the subject. Oxford may
> not have been the author; but Shakspere couldn't have been.
>
> And a first-class teacher Samuel Schoenbaum probably wasn't, unless it
> be compatible with crafty evasion of all difficult points in one's
> subject. I refer the interested few to Charlton Ogburn's "The Mysterious
> William Shakespeare", which cites the examples. It also gives a list of
> dissenters almost a page long, none of them nitwits or congenital
> idiots.
>
> Peter.
--
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From - Mon Feb 23 13:49:14 1998
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From: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
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>From - Fri Feb 20 10:00:12 1998Received: from ucsbvm.ucsb.edu by scjob.sces.org with SMTP (Microsoft
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Count me down as one who found "The Best Years of Our Lives"
considerably overrated. It seemed to me rather conventional, eventhough
it's a fairly enjoyable three or so hours. I felt the same about "Coming
Home." Neither film seemed to me very tough; in fact, I thought they were
rather predictable. Everything happens as you expected it would.
The only people who hail "Best Years" in this day and age tend to be
World War II veterans; presumably because they relate to it. When they
die, so, I figure, will the film. It's a period piece. I thought it
looked more "of its time" rather than for all time. Good, but not great.
The same will likely be said for most films that deal with the Vietnam
experience. The eternal statement on that conflict has not, I think, been
made, although "Platoon" probably came as close as we are likely to get.
id 1LPFPS3L; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:27:18 -0500
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Your message dated Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:30:45 -0800 with subject "Nabokov
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Congratulations! It's not often in life you get a guarantee AND a free
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For 18 months, Slate has provided a smart take on the week's news,
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From - Mon Feb 23 13:48:19 1998
Message-ID: <34F1EEA3.794F@scjob.sces.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:48:19 -0800
From: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Organization: SCESC
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
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To: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Subject: Yours
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--
>From - Fri Feb 20 10:00:12 1998Received: from ucsbvm.ucsb.edu by scjob.sces.org with SMTP (Microsoft
Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49)
Count me down as one who found "The Best Years of Our Lives"
considerably overrated. It seemed to me rather conventional, eventhough
it's a fairly enjoyable three or so hours. I felt the same about "Coming
Home." Neither film seemed to me very tough; in fact, I thought they were
rather predictable. Everything happens as you expected it would.
The only people who hail "Best Years" in this day and age tend to be
World War II veterans; presumably because they relate to it. When they
die, so, I figure, will the film. It's a period piece. I thought it
looked more "of its time" rather than for all time. Good, but not great.
The same will likely be said for most films that deal with the Vietnam
experience. The eternal statement on that conflict has not, I think, been
made, although "Platoon" probably came as close as we are likely to get.
id 1LPFPS3L; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:27:18 -0500
Received: from UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU by UCSBVM.ucsb.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3)
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 05:28:14 -0800
From:
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Subject: Message ("Your message dated Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:30:45...")
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Your message dated Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:30:45 -0800 with subject "Nabokov
an
anti-Stratfordian?" has been submitted to the moderator of the
NABOKV-L
list: Galya Diment <GALYA@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>.
>From - Fri Feb 20 08:18:46 1998Received: from mailrelay.netresponse.com by scjob.sces.org with SMTP
(Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49)
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From: Rogers Weed <slate@slatemail.netresponse.com>
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Slate prefers MASTERCARD (tm) as the best way to pay for
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Dear rwelch@scjob.sces.org --
Congratulations! It's not often in life you get a guarantee AND a free
gift just for being a thoughtful individual. This is one of those
times.
For 18 months, Slate has provided a smart take on the week's news,
politics, and culture. Thanks to increased media coverage and regular
readers -- especially readers of printable Slate like you -- spreading
the good word, more and more people are aware of SLATE.
If you've read us lately, you probably know that SLATE will begin
charging a nominal subscription fee on March 9th. And we are extending
to you--as a loyal reader--this lifetime Charter Subscriber Invitation.
* The unique perspective Slate provides informs and entertains.
Subscribe to SLATE by March 8th, and you'll continue to have
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perspective on news, politics and culture.
* Our regular subscription rate will be $29.95 a year, but subscribe
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We're less expensive than print publications, and far more timely.
* For Charter Subscribers, that $19.95 rate is guaranteed for life!
SLATE appreciates your support, and this is our way of saying thanks.
* As a special gift, we'll send you a FREE SLATE UMBRELLA (a $20
value) or a copy of Microsoft (tm) Encarta (tm) Virtual Globe
(a $54 estimated retail price). Your choice.
* When you subscribe, you get a TWO-WEEK FREE TRIAL to enjoy
everything SLATE has to offer--all our columns and features, our
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cancel during this trial period, you pay nothing!
* If you're EVER dissatisfied, just tell us--we'll give you a
complete refund of the unused part of your subscription. No
questions. No strings!
Even if you didn't get all those terrific benefits, SLATE would still be
an outstanding value. The daily paper costs you a quarter--maybe even
50 cents. Half an hour later, you probably throw it out. With SLATE,
you spend less than 40 cents for an entire week!
But to lock in your Charter Subscriber Rate, and all the benefits I've
described, we must hear from you by March 8, 1998. This is a
limited time offer--to thank you for your early support.
And remember, if you respond by March 8, you'll get a SLATE
UMBRELLA or Encarta Virtual Globe -- your choice!
Follow this link now:
http://www.slate.com/subscribe/12.asp
Don't miss a day!
Best,
Rogers Weed, Publisher
SLATE Magazine
P.S. Follow the link above for more information about your choice of
FREE GIFTS. Slate for a year, a guaranteed rate, and a FREE UMBRELLA,
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******************************************************************
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written back in the 1960s with his wife Dorothy who was then listed as its
primary author. Isn't he primarily a naturalist, writing about birds,
among other things and matters? Don Johnson probably knows him well in
that capacity. GD***
From: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Mr. Kartsev's letter raises more doubts about Nabokov as an
anti-Stratfordian than he intended, at least
from my admittedly lay perspective. The reason is his citation of
Charlton Ogburn, whom he pits against Schoenbaum.
In the spirit of Mr. Kartsev, I refer the interested few to
Schoenbaum's LIVES, which points out that Mr. Ogburn has defended the
Oxfordian position by rifling
through the plays and coming up with this or that quote to
bolster his position, each more strained than the next. For
example, Touchstone's statement in "As You
Like It" that "all your writers do consent that ipse is he; now,
you are not ipse, for I am he," Ogburn interprets as a
buried message from Oxford to the fraud Shaksper.
Not long ago, in a PBS documentary, another Oxfordian cited
Macbeth's "brief candle" speech as being Oxford's own world-weary
assessment for an artistic lifetime that would have to bear the
name of an ignorant glovemaker's son.
Doesn't this practice (perhaps unavoidable, from either side)
of ransacking fiction for facts of life smack of the very
psycho-scholarship (if not pseudo-scholarship) that Nabokov so contemned?
One message we hear over and over in the lectures is that works of art
are fairy tales and nothing more?
Another observation, for what it's worth: I won't attempt to
go head-to-head with Kartsev over Schoenbaum's scholarship.
However, his scrupulous attention to facts and his refusal to
embroider beyond what is known do indeed suggest to me a first-
rate teacher, and one the literalist Nabokov would certainly
favor.
Rodney Welch
Columbia, SC
Galya Diment wrote:
>
> From: "Peter A. Kartsev" <petr@glas.apc.org>
>
> Nabokov changing his opinion on the authorship of SLOVO (or on any other
> matter) in order to spite Roman Jakobson (or some other nonentity) is
> about as easy to believe as the illiterate oaf from Stratford writing
> HAMLET. I guess a case could also be made that VN wrote the poem
> "Shakespeare" (as well as all his other works, why not?) in order to
> spite Adamovich, Ivanov, Wilson and a succession of others. This,
> however, will be inconsistent with just about everything he ever wrote
> (thus making him an inveterate liar) and with everything we know about
> him. It seems rather more logical to suppose that with his aristocratic
> and individualistic view of art, the picture he drew in the poem would
> appeal to his imagination much more than that of Will Shakspere penning
> masterpieces casually and carelessly after a hard day of moneylending
> and debt collecting. In this respect, I think, Nabokov fits remarkably
> well with the dissenting group.
>
> And if this is "toying with anti-Stratfordianism", as somebody called
> it, then what Samuel Schoenbaum does is surely nothing more than toying
> with Stratfordianism. While Nabokov never names his candidate for the
> authorship, Schoenbaum et al. drag out the most preposterous candidate
> of all, the Stratford boor. The anti-Stratfordian contention, by the
> way, is NOT that William Shakespeare did not write the plays. The
> heretics only maintain that there is absolutely no proof that whoever
> chose to hide behind that name and William Shakspere of Stratford are
> one and the same. This subtle difference with all its implications has
> to be understood by anyone who is interested in the subject. Oxford may
> not have been the author; but Shakspere couldn't have been.
>
> And a first-class teacher Samuel Schoenbaum probably wasn't, unless it
> be compatible with crafty evasion of all difficult points in one's
> subject. I refer the interested few to Charlton Ogburn's "The Mysterious
> William Shakespeare", which cites the examples. It also gives a list of
> dissenters almost a page long, none of them nitwits or congenital
> idiots.
>
> Peter.
--
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From - Mon Feb 23 13:49:14 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:48:19 -0800
From: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Organization: SCESC
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>From - Fri Feb 20 10:00:12 1998Received: from ucsbvm.ucsb.edu by scjob.sces.org with SMTP (Microsoft
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Count me down as one who found "The Best Years of Our Lives"
considerably overrated. It seemed to me rather conventional, eventhough
it's a fairly enjoyable three or so hours. I felt the same about "Coming
Home." Neither film seemed to me very tough; in fact, I thought they were
rather predictable. Everything happens as you expected it would.
The only people who hail "Best Years" in this day and age tend to be
World War II veterans; presumably because they relate to it. When they
die, so, I figure, will the film. It's a period piece. I thought it
looked more "of its time" rather than for all time. Good, but not great.
The same will likely be said for most films that deal with the Vietnam
experience. The eternal statement on that conflict has not, I think, been
made, although "Platoon" probably came as close as we are likely to get.
id 1LPFPS3L; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:27:18 -0500
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Your message dated Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:30:45 -0800 with subject "Nabokov
an
anti-Stratfordian?" has been submitted to the moderator of the
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list: Galya Diment <GALYA@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>.
>From - Fri Feb 20 08:18:46 1998Received: from mailrelay.netresponse..com by scjob.sces.org with SMTP
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---------------------------------------------------
Dear rwelch@scjob.sces.org --
Congratulations! It's not often in life you get a guarantee AND a free
gift just for being a thoughtful individual. This is one of those
times.
For 18 months, Slate has provided a smart take on the week's news,
politics, and culture. Thanks to increased media coverage and regular
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the good word, more and more people are aware of SLATE.
If you've read us lately, you probably know that SLATE will begin
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* The unique perspective Slate provides informs and entertains.
Subscribe to SLATE by March 8th, and you'll continue to have
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* Our regular subscription rate will be $29.95 a year, but subscribe
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We're less expensive than print publications, and far more timely.
* For Charter Subscribers, that $19.95 rate is guaranteed for life!
SLATE appreciates your support, and this is our way of saying thanks.
* As a special gift, we'll send you a FREE SLATE UMBRELLA (a $20
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* When you subscribe, you get a TWO-WEEK FREE TRIAL to enjoy
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* If you're EVER dissatisfied, just tell us--we'll give you a
complete refund of the unused part of your subscription. No
questions. No strings!
Even if you didn't get all those terrific benefits, SLATE would still be
an outstanding value. The daily paper costs you a quarter--maybe even
50 cents. Half an hour later, you probably throw it out. With SLATE,
you spend less than 40 cents for an entire week!
But to lock in your Charter Subscriber Rate, and all the benefits I've
described, we must hear from you by March 8, 1998. This is a
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From - Mon Feb 23 13:48:19 1998
Message-ID: <34F1EEA3.794F@scjob.sces.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:48:19 -0800
From: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Organization: SCESC
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Rodney Welch <RWelch@scjob.sces.org>
Subject: Yours
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
--
>From - Fri Feb 20 10:00:12 1998Received: from ucsbvm.ucsb.edu by scjob.sces.org with SMTP (Microsoft
Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49)
Count me down as one who found "The Best Years of Our Lives"
considerably overrated. It seemed to me rather conventional, eventhough
it's a fairly enjoyable three or so hours. I felt the same about "Coming
Home." Neither film seemed to me very tough; in fact, I thought they were
rather predictable. Everything happens as you expected it would.
The only people who hail "Best Years" in this day and age tend to be
World War II veterans; presumably because they relate to it. When they
die, so, I figure, will the film. It's a period piece. I thought it
looked more "of its time" rather than for all time. Good, but not great.
The same will likely be said for most films that deal with the Vietnam
experience. The eternal statement on that conflict has not, I think, been
made, although "Platoon" probably came as close as we are likely to get.
id 1LPFPS3L; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:27:18 -0500
Received: from UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU by UCSBVM.ucsb.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3)
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From:
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Subject: Message ("Your message dated Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:30:45...")
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Your message dated Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:30:45 -0800 with subject "Nabokov
an
anti-Stratfordian?" has been submitted to the moderator of the
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list: Galya Diment <GALYA@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>.
>From - Fri Feb 20 08:18:46 1998Received: from mailrelay.netresponse.com by scjob.sces.org with SMTP
(Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49)
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From: Rogers Weed <slate@slatemail.netresponse.com>
To: "rwelch@scjob.sces.org" <rwelch@scjob.sces.org>
X-ProspectID: 494665
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 01:00:07 "GMT"
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---------------------------------------------------
YOU'RE INVITED to join SLATE (tm) as a Charter Member -- RISK-FREE!
* guarantee your low $19.95 rate for life...
* and get a FREE SLATE UMBRELLA...
* but we need to hear from you by March 8th!
Follow this link to subscribe now:
http://www.slate.com/subscribe/12.asp
Slate prefers MASTERCARD (tm) as the best way to pay for
everything that matters.
---------------------------------------------------
Dear rwelch@scjob.sces.org --
Congratulations! It's not often in life you get a guarantee AND a free
gift just for being a thoughtful individual. This is one of those
times.
For 18 months, Slate has provided a smart take on the week's news,
politics, and culture. Thanks to increased media coverage and regular
readers -- especially readers of printable Slate like you -- spreading
the good word, more and more people are aware of SLATE.
If you've read us lately, you probably know that SLATE will begin
charging a nominal subscription fee on March 9th. And we are extending
to you--as a loyal reader--this lifetime Charter Subscriber Invitation.
* The unique perspective Slate provides informs and entertains.
Subscribe to SLATE by March 8th, and you'll continue to have
unrestricted access to our superb writers and editors, and their
perspective on news, politics and culture.
* Our regular subscription rate will be $29.95 a year, but subscribe
now and pay only $19.95 a year--less than 39 cents a week.
We're less expensive than print publications, and far more timely.
* For Charter Subscribers, that $19.95 rate is guaranteed for life!
SLATE appreciates your support, and this is our way of saying thanks.
* As a special gift, we'll send you a FREE SLATE UMBRELLA (a $20
value) or a copy of Microsoft (tm) Encarta (tm) Virtual Globe
(a $54 estimated retail price). Your choice.
* When you subscribe, you get a TWO-WEEK FREE TRIAL to enjoy
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