Jansey,
I just now realized that our discussion, at least my share, has wheeled around back into the Romantic poets. From a Keats question to a Wordsworth answer. And now I wonder if VN could actually have intended a closer look at Keats/Bailey than I thought at first. Is there a Proustian mnemosynian, or maybe paramnesian, intonation in the romantic poet's concern with memory? My Keats letters are at home.
Andrew Brown
----------
From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:06 PM
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
----- Forwarded message from jansy@aetern.us -----
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:09:53 -0300
From: Jansy Berndt de Souza Mello <jansy@aetern.us>
Reply-To: Jansy Berndt de Souza Mello <jansy@aetern.us>
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
RE: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?Andrew,
You described what I meant and was unable to put into so many words ( actually,
not that many!):" memories that come unbidden" instead of "specific memories
that are sought but not obtained". But your observation that these memories are
"often unwelcome" adds a Freudian dimension that I didnīt find in Proustīs
elaborations.
I think that what HH sought was not a specific memory - but that he did seek a
specific state of mind that could lead him into the experience of an "aesthetic
bliss".
You wrote, in the end of your note: "until the fateful day he winds up in
Ramsdale. And there he finds the real thing, of which Annabel was merely
simulacrum".
I cannot agree with you that "Lolita was the real thing" because I believe,
like Freud, that there is no such "real thing" except the "real loss" of a
"some-thing" that always haunts every one of us and which Nabokov could render
in such a taunting heartbreaking way in almost all his novels.
Jerrie Friedman wrote beautifully about his reading of "Pale Fire" and shared
his vision with us where a "red admiral" became "the" thing. But Friedman also
implied a level of apprehension like Taoist Chuang Tzuīs story about having
dreamt that he was a butterfly and upon awakening finding himself not as
certain as heīd been about who he was: a Chuang Tzu person ? A butterfly
dreaming Chuang Tzy? ( i.e: are dreams more real than our conscious vigil-state
sense of "I am"? )
Thinking about movies and Ada, there would never be " a one only real
translation/transposition" of VNīs novel. Thatīs not what movies are about (
"transpositions" ), I think.
Concerning "Lolita", for example, film-critic Richard Corliss wrote about
Kubrickīs achievement saying that Nabokov had written a extravagantly cinematic
screen-play that could only exist on the printed page and Adrian Lyne's
screen-writer, Stephen Schiff, argued that Kubrick's movie tended more to a
Quilty than to a Lolita.
Schiff viewed "Lolita" not as a mere book, but as a jig-saw puzzle, and, in
transposing it into film he intended "to write a movie that an audience could
take in entirely the first time; I hope that we have achieved something like
the effect Nabokov intends after several readings, though our means are
entirely different (...) attempting to translate into a kind of exciting sign
language - the language of the film - what one of the century's greatest
masters of prose rendered so incomparably on the page". Interviewed by
Suellen Stringer-Hye(www.libraries.psu.edu/iasweb/nabokov/schiffl.htm)
What is "really" Ada? Where is the "real Lolita"?
Jansy
----- Forwarded message from as-brown@comcast.net -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:57:34 -0500
From: Andrew Brown <as-brown@comcast.net>
Reply-To: Andrew Brown <as-brown@comcast.net>
Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?Jansey,
It seems to me more that Proust's involuntary memory meant memories that come
unbidden, often unwelcome, more so than specific memories that are sought but
not obtained. Proust's characters are more often engulfed in memories,
overpowered by them. The involuntary action is memory's abundance. But from the
moment Humbert reports Annabel's death in Corfu, he can fairly easily, and
coldbloodedly, proceed without much of a backward glance for her. The passage
in which HH writes his ironic essay is in the period when he also writes his
fleshless (and stillborn) pastiche, and hangs out at the Deux Magot, and
basically lives as a banal left bank cliche. He admits to being an artiste
manque which also supports my idea about the idleness of his essay. The
nympholeptic contact has him in thrall, and he is less pining for the past than
he is muddling toward a future, through a string of desultory adventures, until
the fateful day he winds up in Ramsdale. And there he finds the real thing, of
which Annabel was merely simulacrum.
Andrew Brown
----- Forwarded message from jansy@aetern.us -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:15:27 -0300
From: Jansy Berndt de Souza Mello <jansy@aetern.us>
Reply-To: Jansy Berndt de Souza Mello <jansy@aetern.us>
Subject: Re: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
I havenīt read any but one of Keatsī letters ( with the much quoted
description
of "negative capability" - which all Nabokovians must cultivate anyway ) but
Iīve always been intrigued by Nabokovīs project of having everything under
control in his conscious mind yielding complete and free access to his
remembrances. No slip without glitter and glide.
And yet one of the intriguing aspects of Proustīs theory about memory and his
examples comes from the fact that Proust refers to an "involuntary memory".
There is a wonderful essay on Proust written by Samuel Beckett where he was
able
to count only six or seven epiphanies in Proustīs entire oeuvre.
I was wondering if, instead of joining the chuckling scholars, HH was hiding a
disappointment at his not being able to conjure up Annabel Lee as often as he
desired. If his memory, like the Proustian, remained "involuntary" ...
----- Forwarded message from Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:26:38 -0500
From: "Brown, Andrew" <Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com>
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to
suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article
had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that the
article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was
among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
> ----------
> From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
> Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
> To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
>
> Dear List,
>
> A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
> wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
> Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
> but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
> that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific Keats
> passage that H.H. might be referring to?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike Donohue
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential
or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please refrain from
any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information. Please be
aware
that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission in
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helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to
suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his article
had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that the
article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
----------
From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
Dear List,
A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific Keats
passage that H.H. might be referring to?
Thanks,
Mike Donohue
----- End forwarded message -----
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please
refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information.
Please be aware that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this
transmission in error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew,
I havenīt read any but one of Keatsī letters ( with the much quoted
description of "negative capability" - which all Nabokovians must cultivate
anyway ) but Iīve always been intrigued by Nabokovīs project of having
everything under control in his conscious mind yielding complete and free
access to his remembrances. No slip without glitter and glide.
And yet one of the intriguing aspects of Proustīs theory about memory and his
examples comes from the fact that Proust refers to an "involuntary memory".
There is a wonderful essay on Proust written by Samuel Beckett where he was
able to count only six or seven epiphanies in Proustīs entire oeuvre.
I was wondering if, instead of joining the chuckling scholars, HH was hiding a
disappointment at his not being able to conjure up Annabel Lee as often as he
desired. If his memory, like the Proustian, remained "involuntary" ...
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald B. Johnson
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
----- Forwarded message from Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:26:38 -0500
From: "Brown, Andrew" <Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com>
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to
suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article
had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that the
article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was
among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
> ----------
> From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
> Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
> To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
>
> Dear List,
>
> A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
> wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
> Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
> but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
> that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific Keats
> passage that H.H. might be referring to?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike Donohue
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential
or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please refrain from
any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information. Please be
aware
that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission in
error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that
the article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
----------
From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
Dear List,
A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific Keats
passage that H.H. might be referring to?
Thanks,
Mike Donohue
----- End forwarded message -----
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please
refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information.
Please be aware that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this
transmission in error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jansey,
It seems to me more that Proust's involuntary memory meant memories that come
unbidden, often unwelcome, more so than specific memories that are sought but
not obtained. Proust's characters are more often engulfed in memories,
overpowered by them. The involuntary action is memory's abundance. But from the
moment Humbert reports Annabel's death in Corfu, he can fairly easily, and
coldbloodedly, proceed without much of a backward glance for her. The passage
in which HH writes his ironic essay is in the period when he also writes his
fleshless (and stillborn) pastiche, and hangs out at the Deux Magot, and
basically lives as a banal left bank cliche. He admits to being an artiste
manque which also supports my idea about the idleness of his essay. The
nympholeptic contact has him in thrall, and he is less pining for the past than
he is muddling toward a future, through a string of desultory adventures, until
the fateful day he winds up in Ramsdale. And there he finds the real thing, of
which Annabel was merely simulacrum.
Andrew Brown
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald B. Johnson
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:50 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
----- Forwarded message from jansy@aetern.us -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:15:27 -0300
From: Jansy Berndt de Souza Mello <jansy@aetern.us>
Reply-To: Jansy Berndt de Souza Mello <jansy@aetern.us>
Subject: Re: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
RE: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?Andrew,
I havenīt read any but one of Keatsī letters ( with the much quoted
description
of "negative capability" - which all Nabokovians must cultivate anyway ) but
Iīve always been intrigued by Nabokovīs project of having everything under
control in his conscious mind yielding complete and free access to his
remembrances. No slip without glitter and glide.
And yet one of the intriguing aspects of Proustīs theory about memory and
his
examples comes from the fact that Proust refers to an "involuntary memory".
There is a wonderful essay on Proust written by Samuel Beckett where he was
able
to count only six or seven epiphanies in Proustīs entire oeuvre.
I was wondering if, instead of joining the chuckling scholars, HH was hiding
a
disappointment at his not being able to conjure up Annabel Lee as often as
he
desired. If his memory, like the Proustian, remained "involuntary" ...
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald B. Johnson
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
----- Forwarded message from Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:26:38 -0500
From: "Brown, Andrew" <Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com>
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to
suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article
had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that the
article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN
was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was
among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
> ----------
> From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
> Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
> To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
>
> Dear List,
>
> A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
> wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
> Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
> but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
> that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific
Keats
> passage that H.H. might be referring to?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike Donohue
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential
or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please refrain from
any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information. Please be
aware
that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission
in
error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to
suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article
had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that the
article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was
among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
----------
From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
Dear List,
A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific
Keats
passage that H.H. might be referring to?
Thanks,
Mike Donohue
----- End forwarded message -----
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please
refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this
information.
Please be aware that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this
transmission in error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail
to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew,
I havenīt read any but one of Keatsī letters ( with the much quoted
description of "negative capability" - which all Nabokovians must cultivate
anyway ) but Iīve always been intrigued by Nabokovīs project of having
everything under control in his conscious mind yielding complete and free
access to his remembrances. No slip without glitter and glide.
And yet one of the intriguing aspects of Proustīs theory about memory and
his examples comes from the fact that Proust refers to an "involuntary
memory".
There is a wonderful essay on Proust written by Samuel Beckett where he was
able to count only six or seven epiphanies in Proustīs entire oeuvre.
I was wondering if, instead of joining the chuckling scholars, HH was hiding
a disappointment at his not being able to conjure up Annabel Lee as often as he
desired. If his memory, like the Proustian, remained "involuntary" ...
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald B. Johnson
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
----- Forwarded message from Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com -----
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:26:38 -0500
From: "Brown, Andrew" <Andrew.Brown@bbdodetroit.com>
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to
suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article
had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that the
article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN
was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was
among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
> ----------
> From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
> Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
> To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
>
> Dear List,
>
> A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
> wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
> Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
> but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
> that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific
Keats
> passage that H.H. might be referring to?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike Donohue
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential
or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please refrain from
any
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information. Please be
aware
that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this transmission
in
error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike,
Having read Keats's letters and found nothing in those addressed to Bailey
to suggest a Proustian theme, I took Humbert's assertion to mean that his
article had intentionally been in jest. HH notes without disappointment that
the article provoked chuckles from the few scholars who read it. I think VN was
prone to enjoying this sort of humor. Possibly something of the sort was among
the minute idea seeds out of which grew the masterpiece Pale Fire.
Andrew Brown
----------
From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:48 PM
To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
Subject: Spam: Query: Lolita and Keats-Bailey correspondence?
Dear List,
A Lolita question: Humbert notes (p. 16 in the Vintage edition) that he
wrote an article about "The Proustian theme in a letter from Keats to
Benjamin Bailey." I assume that the letter has something to do with
memory,
but I'm having a hard time finding any passages in Keats's letters to
Bailey
that directly deal with memory. Has anyone figured out the specific
Keats
passage that H.H. might be referring to?
Thanks,
Mike Donohue
----- End forwarded message -----
This message and any attachments contain information, which may be
confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please
refrain from any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this information.
Please be aware that such actions are prohibited. If you have received this
transmission in error, kindly notify us by calling 1-800-262-4723 or e-mail to
helpdesk@bbdo.com. We appreciate your cooperation.
----- End forwarded message -----