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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3450 pale fire
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3450
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:55:48 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> Paul:
> > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an effort to
> > cure John of whatever ails him.
>
> Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
>
> Scott Badger
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:10:16 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> > Paul:
> > > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an effort
to
> > > cure John of whatever ails him.
> >
> > Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
> >
> > Scott Badger
>
> Damn! I meant cod-liver oil....
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:06:44 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
>
>
> You asked yesterday why Nabokov felt compelled to "rhyme"....here is a =
> standard explanation for the use of the heroic couplet....
>
> "Here it is especially apparent that the use of couplets, with their =
> closure, surety and sense of completeness, undescores that sense of =
> control, frequently vivible control, which Nab.s work always gives."
>
> Douglas Fowler - Reading Nabokov pg.112
>
> Here is the Norton Anthology of Poetry take:
>
> "2. The couplet, two lines of verse, usually coupled by rhyme, has been =
> a principal unit of English poetry since rhyme entered the =
> language.......The sustained use of such closed couplets attaned its =
> ultimate sophistication in what came to be known as Heroic couplets =
> (heroic because of their use in epic poems or plays), pioneered by =
> Denham in the 17th cent. and perfected by Dryden and Pope in the 18th. =
> The Chaucerian energies of the iambic pentameter were reigned in and =
> each couplet made a balanced whole within the greater balanced whole of =
> its poem......As if in reaction against the elevated (heroic or mock =
> heroic) diction and syntactic formality of the heroic couplet, more =
> recent users of the couplethave tended to veer towards the other extreme =
> of informality...."
>
> CFA note......Pope and Goldsmith wrote in this form, Wordsworth had =
> already moved on to "free verse" and Tennyson (as Jbor has pointed out, =
> a major influence on PF) was switching to a "abba" (Italian Sonnet) =
> rhyme scheme, and what I believe is iambic tetrameter....
>
> this may all sound somewhat techincal, but if you take a look at a few =
> representative verses of each, you will quickly note the differences in =
> "effect".
>
> love,
> cfa
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:32:05 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>
> You argue that "consonant dissonance" (or some such thing) works against =
> Nab.s purposes in the opening lines.......in the first couplet, there =
> are TWO "conspicuous" consonants, the "x" in waxwing and the "p" in =
> windowpane........these two hardly a dissonant stew generate........in =
> fact, as MalignD suggests, and I and Boyd insist - these lines scan =
> exquisitely....
>
> Far from being "tone deaf" or anything like it, Nab shows a degree of =
> dexterity in the first verse as the "pace" of the first four lines is =
> undeniably slower than that of the last four, which, consistent with the =
> "lighter" sense seem almost "Seussian"......
>
> You commented on Fowler.....here is the relevant excerpt - judge for =
> yourself whether or not it complements your argument....
>
> "It is interesting to know that although Nabokov cannot stand Eliot's =
> poetry, he likes the John Crowe Ransom poem "Bell's for John Whiteside's =
> Daughter". The reason may well lie not so much with the obvious =
> parallel dramatic situation - for the Eliot poem shares it - as with =
> Ransom's success in smuggling into his poem full blown, potentially =
> mawkish feelings, and yet making the poem work......Just as with =
> Nabokov's vision of the swan, and his alliance of it with Mademoiselle =
> only after he brings it under controll as a "dodo-like creature", so =
> Ranosm's immortal geese, retaining both a fairytale beauty and yet =
> convincingly visualized as "lazy" and comical, contribute to the poem a =
> means by which its emotional effect can be dilated without being =
> sentimentally compromised....."
>
> Fowler, Reading N. , pgs. 110-111.
>
> The first verse is representative.....
>
> "There was much speed in her little body,=20
> And such lightness in her footfall,=20
> It is no wonder her brown study
> Astonishes us all......"
>
> This is, as Fowler points out, very similar to PF's potentially =
> "hyperelegaic" opening being contrasted with, what I consider, a rather =
> amusing debate about the properties of reflection....
>
> I also believe, as MalignD has stated, that it would be out of =
> "character" for Nab to "lead" with some obvious clue, even if satire was =
> his intent..........If that is indeed at work here, I expect that the =
> job of smoking it out is gonna require a little more effort...
>
> love,
> cfa
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 28 Jul 2003 13:04:10 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 12:55, Scott Badger wrote:
> > Paul:
> > > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an effort
to
> > > cure John of whatever ails him.
> >
> > Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
> >
> > Scott Badger
> >
>
> I don't think so, not like cod liver oil. Castor oil is of botanical
> rather than zoological origin.
>
> p.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:08:09 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
>
> You asked yesterday why Nabokov felt compelled to "rhyme"....here is a =
> standard explanation for the use of the heroic couplet....
>
> "Here it is especially apparent that the use of couplets, with their =
> closure, surety and sense of completeness, undescores that sense of =
> control, frequently vivible control, which Nab.s work always gives."
>
> Douglas Fowler - Reading Nabokov pg.112
>
> It just dawned on me that the use of this particular scheme contrasts =
> nicely with the ambiguous codes it looks to communicate.....
>
>
> love,
> cfa
--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:13:17 +0100
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> looking for "golden paste" on the internet
>
> it turns out most results refer to cheese, several to cooking, a few to
> paints - but there were a couple of medicines
>
> http://www.ethnobotanicals.com/Kava-kava.html kava kava extract
>
> http://www.tcmtreatment.com/images/diseases/thrombotic-phlebitis.htm Paste
> of Isatis Leaf or Golden Paste
>
> Isatis Leaf is apparently a traditional Chinese medicine used against
"High
> fever, restlessness, maculas and eruptions, unconsciousness, delirium and
so
> on"
> ( http://www.myhealthspan.com/IsatisLeaf.shtm ) . The flavour however is
> reported to be bitter and salty, rather than sweet and fishy.
>
>
> best
>
> James
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 28 Jul 2003 13:21:41 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 13:10, Scott Badger wrote:
> > > Paul:
> > > > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > > > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an
effort to
> > > > cure John of whatever ails him.
> > >
> > > Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
> > >
> > > Scott Badger
> >
> > Damn! I meant cod-liver oil....
> >
> >
>
> Yes, cod liver oil is fishy tasting. Not bad fishy. A fairly pleasant
> taste
>
> p.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:21:29 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: NPPF: CANTO ONE color
>
>
> "I had a favorite young shagbark there
> With ample dark jade leaves and a black, spare,=20
> Vermiculated trunk. The setting sun
> Bronzed the black bark, around which, like undone=20
> Garlands, the shadow of the foliage fell."
>
> This seems very much like a description of a Barbizon school painting, =
> specifically the dark, shadowy scenes of Corot and Courbet.
>
> Later...
>
> "My picture book was at an early age
> The painted parchment papering our cage:
> Mauve rings around the moon; blood orange sun;
> Twinned Iris; and that rare phenomenon
> The iridule - when, beautiful and strange,
> In a bright sky above a mountain range
> One opal cloudlet in an oval form
> Reflects the rainbow of a thunderstorm
> Which in a distant valley has been staged -
> For we are most artistically caged."
>
> Now the pallette has switched to that of the Impressionists, "blood =
> orange"/"opal" suggesting perhaps some of Monet's later works like =
> haystacks and lillies....
>
> There are likely to be art historians who know better, but I always =
> understood the Barbizons to be the last "school" confined entirely to =
> the studio. It was the dirt on the windowpanes which filtered and =
> generated the shadowy atmosphere suggested by these paintings. Paint in =
> a tube, developed in the mid 19th century (I've been told), allowed =
> those who followed this particular genre to take their acts "outside", =
> hence the radical change in color schemes....
>
> So, it can be said, that the impressionists too did "fly through the =
> pane".......
>
> love,
> cfa
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:35:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
> Charles:
>
> <<I also believe, as MalignD has stated, that it would
> be out of "character" for Nab to "lead" with some
> obvious clue, even if satire was his intent...>>
>
> My main disagreement with Rob on this is that I think
> VN is up to something more subtle and fine and tricky
> than satire and parody. I think that because I find
> there's too much that▓s fine in the poem to support an
> argument that VN's simply satirizing.
>
> I think, as best he could, VN imagined Shade, imagined
> a man of a particular time and place, endowed with
> certain talents as well as limitations; then, as that
> character, as Shade, VN wrote as good a poem as he--VN
> and Shade (VN as Shade)--was capable. The result is
> some clunkiness and homeliness mixed with passages of
> real beauty and feeling.
>
> VN wrote this about Joyce and Ulysses:
>
> ⌠... the frilly novelette parodies in the Masturbation
> scene are highly successful; and the sudden junction
> of its cliches with the fireworks and tender sky of
> real poetry is a feat of genius.■
>
> I think this fairly describes what Nabokov is after
> with Shade: his limitations as an artist as
> envisioned by VN are often and throughout transcended
> by the beauty he (Shade) is able to express when moved
> by his most genuine feelings.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 28 Jul 2003 13:38:06 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 13:13, James Kyllo wrote:
> > looking for "golden paste" on the internet
> >
> > it turns out most results refer to cheese, several to cooking, a few to
> > paints - but there were a couple of medicines
>
>
> The term seems to have very wide usage. I couldn't tell if the use of
> kava to treat thrombotic plebitis would be topical or internal.
>
> Plebitis would be another possibility for lameness.
>
> Didn't Nixon suffer from the disease?
>
> P.
>
>
> >
> > http://www.ethnobotanicals.com/Kava-kava.html kava kava extract
> >
> > http://www.tcmtreatment.com/images/diseases/thrombotic-phlebitis.htm
Paste
> > of Isatis Leaf or Golden Paste
> >
> > Isatis Leaf is apparently a traditional Chinese medicine used against
"High
> > fever, restlessness, maculas and eruptions, unconsciousness, delirium
and so
> > on"
> > ( http://www.myhealthspan.com/IsatisLeaf.shtm ) . The flavour however
is
> > reported to be bitter and salty, rather than sweet and fishy.
> >
> >
> > best
> >
> > James
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:43:35 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of cfalbert
> >
>
> >
> > CFA note......Pope and Goldsmith wrote in this form, Wordsworth had
> > already moved on to "free verse" and Tennyson (as Jbor has pointed out,
a
> > major influence on PF) was switching to a "abba" (Italian Sonnet) rhyme
> > scheme, and what I believe is iambic tetrameter....
> >
> > this may all sound somewhat techincal, but if you take a look at a few
> > representative verses of each, you will quickly note the differences in
> > "effect".
> >
> > love,
> > cfa
>
> > It just dawned on me that the use of this particular scheme
> > contrasts nicely with the ambiguous codes it looks to communicate.....
>
>
> Thanks for the clarification, Charles. Given your timeline (with which I
> have some distant familiarity from my previous career as an English
major),
> I think it might be useful to ask why Shade positions himself before
> Wordsworth. Shade is a Pope scholar of course, so he is likely to be more
> familiar or comfortable with this form, and perhaps he prefers it, but
it's
> certainly not cutting-edge poetry (I have a friend who may still have
> Charles Bernstein's number and email -- maybe I'll ask him to ask for an
> opinion). We can surmise Shade's opinion of Eliot. Is he a "retro" poet?
> Does Shade want a return to older forms, is he an anti-modernist? Is he
> therefore likely to be as widely accepted and lauded in 1959 as we are
given
> to believe?
>
> Also, as you say, why is the form of the poem so clearly at odds with the
> subject? Is poetry a closed ("vicious") circle to him? Is "Pale Fire"
> thematically an attempt to escape from its own form? Are twenty questions
> enough?
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:00:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >Is he a "retro" poet? Does Shade want a return to older forms, is he an
> anti-modernist? Is he therefore likely to be as widely accepted and
lauded in
> 1959 as we are given to believe?
>
> He later says he hates jazz and cubism (but he doesn't use this term), so
I
> would say he's anti-modern. Does anyone know how Shade would compare to
Frost
> in general terms?
>
> David Morris
>
> __________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:03:13 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
> I think the Ransom example is telling......and yup, I fully agree - it
seems
> incongruous with what the "naive reader" would see as the likely
"objective"
> of the work as a whole....
>
> love,
> cfa
>
> and if you aren't taking pleasure in what you have wrought - you
> should.........this list is humming..........
>
>
>
>
> Original Message -----
> From: "Malignd" <malignd@yahoo.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
>
> > Charles:
> >
> > <<I also believe, as MalignD has stated, that it would
> > be out of "character" for Nab to "lead" with some
> > obvious clue, even if satire was his intent...>>
> >
> > My main disagreement with Rob on this is that I think
> > VN is up to something more subtle and fine and tricky
> > than satire and parody. I think that because I find
> > there's too much that's fine in the poem to support an
> > argument that VN's simply satirizing.
> >
> > I think, as best he could, VN imagined Shade, imagined
> > a man of a particular time and place, endowed with
> > certain talents as well as limitations; then, as that
> > character, as Shade, VN wrote as good a poem as he--VN
> > and Shade (VN as Shade)--was capable. The result is
> > some clunkiness and homeliness mixed with passages of
> > real beauty and feeling.
> >
> > VN wrote this about Joyce and Ulysses:
> >
> > "... the frilly novelette parodies in the Masturbation
> > scene are highly successful; and the sudden junction
> > of its cliches with the fireworks and tender sky of
> > real poetry is a feat of genius."
> >
> > I think this fairly describes what Nabokov is after
> > with Shade: his limitations as an artist as
> > envisioned by VN are often and throughout transcended
> > by the beauty he (Shade) is able to express when moved
> > by his most genuine feelings.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> Jasper,
>
> Nabokov wrote a book on meter if I'm not mistaken, which provides the
> answer to your question. His views on the importance of it are
> demonstrated in his translation of Pushkin, which retain the similitudes
> within Pushkin's own metrical scheme, and are elaborated on in his
> correspondence with Lowell, who wrote that for a translation to retain
> both the form and the meaning of the original was impossible. Nabokov
> essentially says, well, then I've done the impossible.
>
> Best,
> Michael
>
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Jasper Fidget wrote:
>
> > > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > > Behalf Of cfalbert
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > CFA note......Pope and Goldsmith wrote in this form, Wordsworth had
> > > already moved on to "free verse" and Tennyson (as Jbor has pointed
out, a
> > > major influence on PF) was switching to a "abba" (Italian Sonnet)
rhyme
> > > scheme, and what I believe is iambic tetrameter....
> > >
> > > this may all sound somewhat techincal, but if you take a look at a few
> > > representative verses of each, you will quickly note the differences
in
> > > "effect".
> > >
> > > love,
> > > cfa
> >
> > > It just dawned on me that the use of this particular scheme
> > > contrasts nicely with the ambiguous codes it looks to communicate.....
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification, Charles. Given your timeline (with which
I
> > have some distant familiarity from my previous career as an English
major),
> > I think it might be useful to ask why Shade positions himself before
> > Wordsworth. Shade is a Pope scholar of course, so he is likely to be
more
> > familiar or comfortable with this form, and perhaps he prefers it, but
it's
> > certainly not cutting-edge poetry (I have a friend who may still have
> > Charles Bernstein's number and email -- maybe I'll ask him to ask for an
> > opinion). We can surmise Shade's opinion of Eliot. Is he a "retro"
poet?
> > Does Shade want a return to older forms, is he an anti-modernist? Is he
> > therefore likely to be as widely accepted and lauded in 1959 as we are
given
> > to believe?
> >
> > Also, as you say, why is the form of the poem so clearly at odds with
the
> > subject? Is poetry a closed ("vicious") circle to him? Is "Pale Fire"
> > thematically an attempt to escape from its own form? Are twenty
questions
> > enough?
> >
> > Jasper
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> <<Does anyone know how Shade would compare to Frost in
> general terms?>>
>
> Shade ranked himself behind Frost. Probably VN would
> too, probably so would the rest of us.
>
> Pertinent to this issue of rhyme --
>
> Frost wrote in often complex rhyme schemes because he
> believed strongly in form, and because he liked the
> challenge of writing within formal restraint.
>
> I'm not sure that makes him anti-modern; on the basis
> of the above he might have joined Oulipo.
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:25:57 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> Hey, I'm no technician.......
>
> but if I understand the difference, I think he does both...
>
> here is "open"
>
> Robert Browning's Last Duchess:
>
> That's my last duchess painted on the wall,
> Looking as if she were alive. I call
> That piece a wonder, now: FrЮ Pandolf's hands
> Worked busily a day, and there she stands.
>
> Seems open implies that rhymes may occurr at random points in a clause
or
> sentence, ordered by "meter"....
>
> Heroic, it would appear, mandates that the line ends when the clause,
phrase
> or sentence does....
>
> For the most part, Canto One seems to cleave to the latter....but you are
> absolutely correct to point out the deviation.....
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Malignd" <malignd@yahoo.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:39 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
>
> > <<You asked yesterday why Nabokov felt compelled to
> > "rhyme"....here is a standard explanation for the use
> > of the heroic couplet....>>
> >
> > Small point, but Nabokov in PF wrote what are called
> > "open couplets" (I think), not Heroic (or closed)
> > couplets.
> >
> > __________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NPPF Canto Two - Hazel's Ailments
>
> (293) ⌠Nature chose [her to be] me so as to wrench and rend / Your heart
and
> mine■ See the following manifestations of her ⌠being■ him:
>
> 1. ⌠all little girls are plump■ √ appearance.
> 2. ⌠slight / Squint■ √ poor eyesight: needs glasses √ appearance.
> 3. ⌠she▓ll be [future] quite pretty■ √ appearance.
> 4. ⌠She should [a list of diet and exercise]■ √ appearance
> 5. ⌠Prizes in French and history■ √ intelligent.
> 6. ⌠Mother Time [not a nymphet]■ √ appearance.
> 7. ⌠cygnet/wooduck■ √ appearance.
> 8. ⌠Why stress the physical?■ √ Good question!
> 9. "Virgins/lovemaking/good looks■ √ she might never get laid.
> 10. ⌠No lips/lipstick■ √ loney w/o a man.
> 11. ⌠Strange fears, strange fantasies, strange force of character■ (see
> sub-list below)
> a.⌠nights[┘]barn■ √ curious and brave.
> b.⌠twisted words■ √ like a poet or author.
> c.⌠criticize / Ferociously■ √ (moody? adolescent?)
> d.⌠swollen feet/psoriatic■ √ allergies.
> e.⌠murmuring dreadful words in monotone.■ Psychotic?
>
> It isn▓t until we get to this last line that we get a hint that something
might
> actually be wrong with Hazel. This disconnection between a truly tragic
figure
> and not being pretty seems to be a big flag raised in this book.
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:27:02 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> >>>I don't see your case being made yet, but I admit Canto One raises some
> questions:
>
> 1. What is that paste?
> 2. Why did Shade have those attacks so regularly for one winter?
> 3. Why did they stop?<<<
>
> 4.
> (161) But like some lad forced by a wench
> (162) With his pure tongue her abject thirst to quench,
> (163) I was corrupted, terrified allured,
> (166) The wonder lingers and the shame remains.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3450
> ********************************
>
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3450
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:55:48 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> Paul:
> > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an effort to
> > cure John of whatever ails him.
>
> Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
>
> Scott Badger
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:10:16 -0400
> From: "Scott Badger" <lupine@ncia.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> > Paul:
> > > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an effort
to
> > > cure John of whatever ails him.
> >
> > Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
> >
> > Scott Badger
>
> Damn! I meant cod-liver oil....
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:06:44 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
>
>
> You asked yesterday why Nabokov felt compelled to "rhyme"....here is a =
> standard explanation for the use of the heroic couplet....
>
> "Here it is especially apparent that the use of couplets, with their =
> closure, surety and sense of completeness, undescores that sense of =
> control, frequently vivible control, which Nab.s work always gives."
>
> Douglas Fowler - Reading Nabokov pg.112
>
> Here is the Norton Anthology of Poetry take:
>
> "2. The couplet, two lines of verse, usually coupled by rhyme, has been =
> a principal unit of English poetry since rhyme entered the =
> language.......The sustained use of such closed couplets attaned its =
> ultimate sophistication in what came to be known as Heroic couplets =
> (heroic because of their use in epic poems or plays), pioneered by =
> Denham in the 17th cent. and perfected by Dryden and Pope in the 18th. =
> The Chaucerian energies of the iambic pentameter were reigned in and =
> each couplet made a balanced whole within the greater balanced whole of =
> its poem......As if in reaction against the elevated (heroic or mock =
> heroic) diction and syntactic formality of the heroic couplet, more =
> recent users of the couplethave tended to veer towards the other extreme =
> of informality...."
>
> CFA note......Pope and Goldsmith wrote in this form, Wordsworth had =
> already moved on to "free verse" and Tennyson (as Jbor has pointed out, =
> a major influence on PF) was switching to a "abba" (Italian Sonnet) =
> rhyme scheme, and what I believe is iambic tetrameter....
>
> this may all sound somewhat techincal, but if you take a look at a few =
> representative verses of each, you will quickly note the differences in =
> "effect".
>
> love,
> cfa
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:32:05 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>
> You argue that "consonant dissonance" (or some such thing) works against =
> Nab.s purposes in the opening lines.......in the first couplet, there =
> are TWO "conspicuous" consonants, the "x" in waxwing and the "p" in =
> windowpane........these two hardly a dissonant stew generate........in =
> fact, as MalignD suggests, and I and Boyd insist - these lines scan =
> exquisitely....
>
> Far from being "tone deaf" or anything like it, Nab shows a degree of =
> dexterity in the first verse as the "pace" of the first four lines is =
> undeniably slower than that of the last four, which, consistent with the =
> "lighter" sense seem almost "Seussian"......
>
> You commented on Fowler.....here is the relevant excerpt - judge for =
> yourself whether or not it complements your argument....
>
> "It is interesting to know that although Nabokov cannot stand Eliot's =
> poetry, he likes the John Crowe Ransom poem "Bell's for John Whiteside's =
> Daughter". The reason may well lie not so much with the obvious =
> parallel dramatic situation - for the Eliot poem shares it - as with =
> Ransom's success in smuggling into his poem full blown, potentially =
> mawkish feelings, and yet making the poem work......Just as with =
> Nabokov's vision of the swan, and his alliance of it with Mademoiselle =
> only after he brings it under controll as a "dodo-like creature", so =
> Ranosm's immortal geese, retaining both a fairytale beauty and yet =
> convincingly visualized as "lazy" and comical, contribute to the poem a =
> means by which its emotional effect can be dilated without being =
> sentimentally compromised....."
>
> Fowler, Reading N. , pgs. 110-111.
>
> The first verse is representative.....
>
> "There was much speed in her little body,=20
> And such lightness in her footfall,=20
> It is no wonder her brown study
> Astonishes us all......"
>
> This is, as Fowler points out, very similar to PF's potentially =
> "hyperelegaic" opening being contrasted with, what I consider, a rather =
> amusing debate about the properties of reflection....
>
> I also believe, as MalignD has stated, that it would be out of =
> "character" for Nab to "lead" with some obvious clue, even if satire was =
> his intent..........If that is indeed at work here, I expect that the =
> job of smoking it out is gonna require a little more effort...
>
> love,
> cfa
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 28 Jul 2003 13:04:10 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 12:55, Scott Badger wrote:
> > Paul:
> > > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an effort
to
> > > cure John of whatever ails him.
> >
> > Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
> >
> > Scott Badger
> >
>
> I don't think so, not like cod liver oil. Castor oil is of botanical
> rather than zoological origin.
>
> p.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:08:09 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
>
> You asked yesterday why Nabokov felt compelled to "rhyme"....here is a =
> standard explanation for the use of the heroic couplet....
>
> "Here it is especially apparent that the use of couplets, with their =
> closure, surety and sense of completeness, undescores that sense of =
> control, frequently vivible control, which Nab.s work always gives."
>
> Douglas Fowler - Reading Nabokov pg.112
>
> It just dawned on me that the use of this particular scheme contrasts =
> nicely with the ambiguous codes it looks to communicate.....
>
>
> love,
> cfa
--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:13:17 +0100
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> looking for "golden paste" on the internet
>
> it turns out most results refer to cheese, several to cooking, a few to
> paints - but there were a couple of medicines
>
> http://www.ethnobotanicals.com/Kava-kava.html kava kava extract
>
> http://www.tcmtreatment.com/images/diseases/thrombotic-phlebitis.htm Paste
> of Isatis Leaf or Golden Paste
>
> Isatis Leaf is apparently a traditional Chinese medicine used against
"High
> fever, restlessness, maculas and eruptions, unconsciousness, delirium and
so
> on"
> ( http://www.myhealthspan.com/IsatisLeaf.shtm ) . The flavour however is
> reported to be bitter and salty, rather than sweet and fishy.
>
>
> best
>
> James
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 28 Jul 2003 13:21:41 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 13:10, Scott Badger wrote:
> > > Paul:
> > > > I'm inclined to think the golden paste is something Aunt Maud has
> > > > concocted in the kitchen from herbs, spices, honey, etc. in an
effort to
> > > > cure John of whatever ails him.
> > >
> > > Does castor oil taste "fishy"?
> > >
> > > Scott Badger
> >
> > Damn! I meant cod-liver oil....
> >
> >
>
> Yes, cod liver oil is fishy tasting. Not bad fishy. A fairly pleasant
> taste
>
> p.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:21:29 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: NPPF: CANTO ONE color
>
>
> "I had a favorite young shagbark there
> With ample dark jade leaves and a black, spare,=20
> Vermiculated trunk. The setting sun
> Bronzed the black bark, around which, like undone=20
> Garlands, the shadow of the foliage fell."
>
> This seems very much like a description of a Barbizon school painting, =
> specifically the dark, shadowy scenes of Corot and Courbet.
>
> Later...
>
> "My picture book was at an early age
> The painted parchment papering our cage:
> Mauve rings around the moon; blood orange sun;
> Twinned Iris; and that rare phenomenon
> The iridule - when, beautiful and strange,
> In a bright sky above a mountain range
> One opal cloudlet in an oval form
> Reflects the rainbow of a thunderstorm
> Which in a distant valley has been staged -
> For we are most artistically caged."
>
> Now the pallette has switched to that of the Impressionists, "blood =
> orange"/"opal" suggesting perhaps some of Monet's later works like =
> haystacks and lillies....
>
> There are likely to be art historians who know better, but I always =
> understood the Barbizons to be the last "school" confined entirely to =
> the studio. It was the dirt on the windowpanes which filtered and =
> generated the shadowy atmosphere suggested by these paintings. Paint in =
> a tube, developed in the mid 19th century (I've been told), allowed =
> those who followed this particular genre to take their acts "outside", =
> hence the radical change in color schemes....
>
> So, it can be said, that the impressionists too did "fly through the =
> pane".......
>
> love,
> cfa
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:35:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
> Charles:
>
> <<I also believe, as MalignD has stated, that it would
> be out of "character" for Nab to "lead" with some
> obvious clue, even if satire was his intent...>>
>
> My main disagreement with Rob on this is that I think
> VN is up to something more subtle and fine and tricky
> than satire and parody. I think that because I find
> there's too much that▓s fine in the poem to support an
> argument that VN's simply satirizing.
>
> I think, as best he could, VN imagined Shade, imagined
> a man of a particular time and place, endowed with
> certain talents as well as limitations; then, as that
> character, as Shade, VN wrote as good a poem as he--VN
> and Shade (VN as Shade)--was capable. The result is
> some clunkiness and homeliness mixed with passages of
> real beauty and feeling.
>
> VN wrote this about Joyce and Ulysses:
>
> ⌠... the frilly novelette parodies in the Masturbation
> scene are highly successful; and the sudden junction
> of its cliches with the fireworks and tender sky of
> real poetry is a feat of genius.■
>
> I think this fairly describes what Nabokov is after
> with Shade: his limitations as an artist as
> envisioned by VN are often and throughout transcended
> by the beauty he (Shade) is able to express when moved
> by his most genuine feelings.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 28 Jul 2003 13:38:06 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 "that golden paste!"
>
> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 13:13, James Kyllo wrote:
> > looking for "golden paste" on the internet
> >
> > it turns out most results refer to cheese, several to cooking, a few to
> > paints - but there were a couple of medicines
>
>
> The term seems to have very wide usage. I couldn't tell if the use of
> kava to treat thrombotic plebitis would be topical or internal.
>
> Plebitis would be another possibility for lameness.
>
> Didn't Nixon suffer from the disease?
>
> P.
>
>
> >
> > http://www.ethnobotanicals.com/Kava-kava.html kava kava extract
> >
> > http://www.tcmtreatment.com/images/diseases/thrombotic-phlebitis.htm
Paste
> > of Isatis Leaf or Golden Paste
> >
> > Isatis Leaf is apparently a traditional Chinese medicine used against
"High
> > fever, restlessness, maculas and eruptions, unconsciousness, delirium
and so
> > on"
> > ( http://www.myhealthspan.com/IsatisLeaf.shtm ) . The flavour however
is
> > reported to be bitter and salty, rather than sweet and fishy.
> >
> >
> > best
> >
> > James
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:43:35 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of cfalbert
> >
>
> >
> > CFA note......Pope and Goldsmith wrote in this form, Wordsworth had
> > already moved on to "free verse" and Tennyson (as Jbor has pointed out,
a
> > major influence on PF) was switching to a "abba" (Italian Sonnet) rhyme
> > scheme, and what I believe is iambic tetrameter....
> >
> > this may all sound somewhat techincal, but if you take a look at a few
> > representative verses of each, you will quickly note the differences in
> > "effect".
> >
> > love,
> > cfa
>
> > It just dawned on me that the use of this particular scheme
> > contrasts nicely with the ambiguous codes it looks to communicate.....
>
>
> Thanks for the clarification, Charles. Given your timeline (with which I
> have some distant familiarity from my previous career as an English
major),
> I think it might be useful to ask why Shade positions himself before
> Wordsworth. Shade is a Pope scholar of course, so he is likely to be more
> familiar or comfortable with this form, and perhaps he prefers it, but
it's
> certainly not cutting-edge poetry (I have a friend who may still have
> Charles Bernstein's number and email -- maybe I'll ask him to ask for an
> opinion). We can surmise Shade's opinion of Eliot. Is he a "retro" poet?
> Does Shade want a return to older forms, is he an anti-modernist? Is he
> therefore likely to be as widely accepted and lauded in 1959 as we are
given
> to believe?
>
> Also, as you say, why is the form of the poem so clearly at odds with the
> subject? Is poetry a closed ("vicious") circle to him? Is "Pale Fire"
> thematically an attempt to escape from its own form? Are twenty questions
> enough?
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:00:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >Is he a "retro" poet? Does Shade want a return to older forms, is he an
> anti-modernist? Is he therefore likely to be as widely accepted and
lauded in
> 1959 as we are given to believe?
>
> He later says he hates jazz and cubism (but he doesn't use this term), so
I
> would say he's anti-modern. Does anyone know how Shade would compare to
Frost
> in general terms?
>
> David Morris
>
> __________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:03:13 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
> I think the Ransom example is telling......and yup, I fully agree - it
seems
> incongruous with what the "naive reader" would see as the likely
"objective"
> of the work as a whole....
>
> love,
> cfa
>
> and if you aren't taking pleasure in what you have wrought - you
> should.........this list is humming..........
>
>
>
>
> Original Message -----
> From: "Malignd" <malignd@yahoo.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE More Fowler/for Jbor
>
>
> > Charles:
> >
> > <<I also believe, as MalignD has stated, that it would
> > be out of "character" for Nab to "lead" with some
> > obvious clue, even if satire was his intent...>>
> >
> > My main disagreement with Rob on this is that I think
> > VN is up to something more subtle and fine and tricky
> > than satire and parody. I think that because I find
> > there's too much that's fine in the poem to support an
> > argument that VN's simply satirizing.
> >
> > I think, as best he could, VN imagined Shade, imagined
> > a man of a particular time and place, endowed with
> > certain talents as well as limitations; then, as that
> > character, as Shade, VN wrote as good a poem as he--VN
> > and Shade (VN as Shade)--was capable. The result is
> > some clunkiness and homeliness mixed with passages of
> > real beauty and feeling.
> >
> > VN wrote this about Joyce and Ulysses:
> >
> > "... the frilly novelette parodies in the Masturbation
> > scene are highly successful; and the sudden junction
> > of its cliches with the fireworks and tender sky of
> > real poetry is a feat of genius."
> >
> > I think this fairly describes what Nabokov is after
> > with Shade: his limitations as an artist as
> > envisioned by VN are often and throughout transcended
> > by the beauty he (Shade) is able to express when moved
> > by his most genuine feelings.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> Jasper,
>
> Nabokov wrote a book on meter if I'm not mistaken, which provides the
> answer to your question. His views on the importance of it are
> demonstrated in his translation of Pushkin, which retain the similitudes
> within Pushkin's own metrical scheme, and are elaborated on in his
> correspondence with Lowell, who wrote that for a translation to retain
> both the form and the meaning of the original was impossible. Nabokov
> essentially says, well, then I've done the impossible.
>
> Best,
> Michael
>
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Jasper Fidget wrote:
>
> > > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > > Behalf Of cfalbert
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > CFA note......Pope and Goldsmith wrote in this form, Wordsworth had
> > > already moved on to "free verse" and Tennyson (as Jbor has pointed
out, a
> > > major influence on PF) was switching to a "abba" (Italian Sonnet)
rhyme
> > > scheme, and what I believe is iambic tetrameter....
> > >
> > > this may all sound somewhat techincal, but if you take a look at a few
> > > representative verses of each, you will quickly note the differences
in
> > > "effect".
> > >
> > > love,
> > > cfa
> >
> > > It just dawned on me that the use of this particular scheme
> > > contrasts nicely with the ambiguous codes it looks to communicate.....
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification, Charles. Given your timeline (with which
I
> > have some distant familiarity from my previous career as an English
major),
> > I think it might be useful to ask why Shade positions himself before
> > Wordsworth. Shade is a Pope scholar of course, so he is likely to be
more
> > familiar or comfortable with this form, and perhaps he prefers it, but
it's
> > certainly not cutting-edge poetry (I have a friend who may still have
> > Charles Bernstein's number and email -- maybe I'll ask him to ask for an
> > opinion). We can surmise Shade's opinion of Eliot. Is he a "retro"
poet?
> > Does Shade want a return to older forms, is he an anti-modernist? Is he
> > therefore likely to be as widely accepted and lauded in 1959 as we are
given
> > to believe?
> >
> > Also, as you say, why is the form of the poem so clearly at odds with
the
> > subject? Is poetry a closed ("vicious") circle to him? Is "Pale Fire"
> > thematically an attempt to escape from its own form? Are twenty
questions
> > enough?
> >
> > Jasper
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> <<Does anyone know how Shade would compare to Frost in
> general terms?>>
>
> Shade ranked himself behind Frost. Probably VN would
> too, probably so would the rest of us.
>
> Pertinent to this issue of rhyme --
>
> Frost wrote in often complex rhyme schemes because he
> believed strongly in form, and because he liked the
> challenge of writing within formal restraint.
>
> I'm not sure that makes him anti-modern; on the basis
> of the above he might have joined Oulipo.
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 14:25:57 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
> Hey, I'm no technician.......
>
> but if I understand the difference, I think he does both...
>
> here is "open"
>
> Robert Browning's Last Duchess:
>
> That's my last duchess painted on the wall,
> Looking as if she were alive. I call
> That piece a wonder, now: FrЮ Pandolf's hands
> Worked busily a day, and there she stands.
>
> Seems open implies that rhymes may occurr at random points in a clause
or
> sentence, ordered by "meter"....
>
> Heroic, it would appear, mandates that the line ends when the clause,
phrase
> or sentence does....
>
> For the most part, Canto One seems to cleave to the latter....but you are
> absolutely correct to point out the deviation.....
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Malignd" <malignd@yahoo.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 1:39 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE D. Fowler/ for Jasper
>
>
> > <<You asked yesterday why Nabokov felt compelled to
> > "rhyme"....here is a standard explanation for the use
> > of the heroic couplet....>>
> >
> > Small point, but Nabokov in PF wrote what are called
> > "open couplets" (I think), not Heroic (or closed)
> > couplets.
> >
> > __________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NPPF Canto Two - Hazel's Ailments
>
> (293) ⌠Nature chose [her to be] me so as to wrench and rend / Your heart
and
> mine■ See the following manifestations of her ⌠being■ him:
>
> 1. ⌠all little girls are plump■ √ appearance.
> 2. ⌠slight / Squint■ √ poor eyesight: needs glasses √ appearance.
> 3. ⌠she▓ll be [future] quite pretty■ √ appearance.
> 4. ⌠She should [a list of diet and exercise]■ √ appearance
> 5. ⌠Prizes in French and history■ √ intelligent.
> 6. ⌠Mother Time [not a nymphet]■ √ appearance.
> 7. ⌠cygnet/wooduck■ √ appearance.
> 8. ⌠Why stress the physical?■ √ Good question!
> 9. "Virgins/lovemaking/good looks■ √ she might never get laid.
> 10. ⌠No lips/lipstick■ √ loney w/o a man.
> 11. ⌠Strange fears, strange fantasies, strange force of character■ (see
> sub-list below)
> a.⌠nights[┘]barn■ √ curious and brave.
> b.⌠twisted words■ √ like a poet or author.
> c.⌠criticize / Ferociously■ √ (moody? adolescent?)
> d.⌠swollen feet/psoriatic■ √ allergies.
> e.⌠murmuring dreadful words in monotone.■ Psychotic?
>
> It isn▓t until we get to this last line that we get a hint that something
might
> actually be wrong with Hazel. This disconnection between a truly tragic
figure
> and not being pretty seems to be a big flag raised in this book.
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:27:02 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1 Incest Motif
>
> >>>I don't see your case being made yet, but I admit Canto One raises some
> questions:
>
> 1. What is that paste?
> 2. Why did Shade have those attacks so regularly for one winter?
> 3. Why did they stop?<<<
>
> 4.
> (161) But like some lad forced by a wench
> (162) With his pure tongue her abject thirst to quench,
> (163) I was corrupted, terrified allured,
> (166) The wonder lingers and the shame remains.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3450
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>