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Fwd: RE: Nabokov & a color question
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EDNOTE. Many thanks to Adelina Grand-Clement for this well-informed item on
color--a subject of great interest to VN. I know of no other writer who uses so
many color terms, a phenomenon perhaps connected with his "colored hearing."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Forwarded message from adddeline@hotmail.com -----
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:21:46 +0000
From: adeline grand-clément <adddeline@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: adeline grand-clément <adddeline@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Nabokov & a color question
---------------- Message requiring your approval (109 lines)
------------------
<<The original question :
<Please forgive this question re Homer. Where else should I have asked?
<Jansy wrote: ". . . The homeric "purpureum" might not necessarily refer to
a "wine-red sea" but to <the absence of a word for blue. . ."Was there no
word for blue when Homer wrote? I have heard <that blue is the last color to
be named in every language, but have heard no definite reason why <this is
so. What about Athena's glaucous eyes, which Andrew Lang translated as gray
eyes and <which somebody interpreted, in a program about Ulysses, as eyes of
the most brilliant blue that <television could produce? Was the sea wine-red
because there was no word for blue? (I've not <seen the Mediterranean, but
I've seen red wine and it's hard to imagine any sea that color or any <shade
of "wine-dark". Maybe unfermented juice of purple or black grapes? Or maybe
on rare <occasions, as during an unusual sunset? Or maybe I don't party
often enough.)
<Mary Krimmel
THE ANSWER :
Hello,
IÂ’m doing a Phd in Ancient History in France : I study the function of
colour in the Greek archaic culture (VIII-VI BC), so I know a few things
about the Homeric question and the question of the meaning of greek colour
terms. I will try to answer the few questions you asked (“try”, because you
raise very complex problems !) :
1- “I have heard that blue is the last color to be named in every language,
but have heard no definite reason why this is so” :
Two American sociologists, Berlin and Kay, have wrote a theory about the
colour terms which do exist in all languages : BERLIN Brent and KAY Paul,
Basic Color Terms, Berkeley-Los Angeles, University of California Press,
1969. They have studied different languages all over the world and have
concluded that when a language have only two colour terms, these are always
black and white ; three colour terms : black, white and red ; four : B, W,
R and yellow or green ; five : B, W, R, Y, G ; six : the colour blue does
appear ; seven : violet ; Â… I donÂ’t remember whether they suggest the reason
for such a sequence. This theory have been criticized because it doesnÂ’t
necessary work with every language. For example, I think you canÂ’t apply it
to Homeric language.
2- “Was there no word for blue when Homer wrote ?” ; “What about Athena's
glaucous eyes, which Andrew Lang translated as gray eyes and which somebody
interpreted, in a program about Ulysses, as eyes of the most brilliant blue
that television could produce?” :
In fact, it does exist two terms in the Homeric poems which can signify
partly what we call “blue” : kyanos and glaukos. The specialists don’t agree
about their exact meaning : in fact, in the ancient periods, people didnÂ’t
have a “scientific” perception of colour, as we have, with precise words to
refer to precise hues. We should remember for example that the discoveries
of Newton are quite recent, and that the choice of the number seven to
encompass the very subtle range of hues you can see in the rainbow is quite
arbitrary (Newton has chosen the number to establish a correspondence with
music). Ancient greek adjectives for colour donÂ’t refer only to hue : they
denote more often the lightness/darkness, texture, movement, and sometimes
sounds and smells, in a kind of synaesthesic process. The affective
connotations play also an important part in the use of the words. So the
translation is a brain-teaser for specialists ! About the meaning of a few
greek colour words, you can read the very good study :
IRWIN Eleanor, Colour terms in Greek poetry, Toronto, Hakkert, 1974, 242 p.
- In Homer, Kyanos refers to a dark blue, which sometimes can appear black.
It denotes power and has strong chtonic connotations. Homer never uses it to
describe the sea (but later other greek poets will).
- Glaukos doesnÂ’t refer to a definite hue : grey, blue, blue-greyÂ… But what
is important is that it denotes lightness, fierceness, and very special
power. AthenaÂ’s eyes are apotropaic.
MAXWELL-STUART P. G., Studies in Greek Colour Terminology, I, Glaukos,
Mnémosyne, Bibliotheca Classica Batava, Suppléments 35, Leiden, éd. Brill,
1981.
3- “The homeric "purpureum" might not necessarily refer to a "wine-red sea"
but to the absence of a word for blue” ; “Was the sea wine-red because there
was no word for blue? (I've not seen the Mediterranean, but I've seen red
wine and it's hard to imagine any sea that color or any shade of
"wine-dark". Maybe unfermented juice of purple or black grapes? Or maybe on
rare occasions, as during an unusual sunset?)” :
The meaning of the formula “porphureos” is a complex question. I don’t think
it is used because there is not a good adjective to describe the colour
blue.
In Antiquity, the purple dye was not of a precise colour : with the murex
you can obtain a great range of colours : from deep blue to bright red. So
it is not surprising using it about the sea, which colour can vary in
function of atmospheric conditions. But the expression doesnÂ’t refer only to
colour : it has a symbolic meaning. The verb “porphurô” signify “to move, to
bubble”. So there is a contamination of the expression, and the adjective
‘porphureos’ convey also this image. Moreover, it has worrying, sinister
connotations (Homer uses it also to qualify death) : for ancient Greeks,
sailing was always something dangerousÂ… They didnÂ’t have the same perception
of the sea we have now.
But what is very interesting, is that the other adjectives Homer uses about
the sea are, apart white (leukos) and grey (polios), violet (ioeis) and “the
colour of wine” (oinops). So there is a strong connection with the idea of a
profound, dark colourÂ…. Perhaps linked to religious connotations (cf :
DARAKI M., «La mer dionysiaque», Revue de l’Histoire des religions, tome
CIC, fasc. 1, Janvier-mars 1982, p. 3-22).
A very good paper was written about this topic by an italian specialist :
FERRINI M. F., “La porpora e il mare”, Atti Istituto Veneto di Scienze,
lettere ed Arti, Clasedi Scienze morali, lettere ed arti, 158 (1), 2000, p.
47-94.
If you are really interested in these questions, I can send a few
bibliographic references moreÂ…
Adeline Grand-Clément
----- End forwarded message -----
color--a subject of great interest to VN. I know of no other writer who uses so
many color terms, a phenomenon perhaps connected with his "colored hearing."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Forwarded message from adddeline@hotmail.com -----
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:21:46 +0000
From: adeline grand-clément <adddeline@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: adeline grand-clément <adddeline@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Nabokov & a color question
---------------- Message requiring your approval (109 lines)
------------------
<<The original question :
<Please forgive this question re Homer. Where else should I have asked?
<Jansy wrote: ". . . The homeric "purpureum" might not necessarily refer to
a "wine-red sea" but to <the absence of a word for blue. . ."Was there no
word for blue when Homer wrote? I have heard <that blue is the last color to
be named in every language, but have heard no definite reason why <this is
so. What about Athena's glaucous eyes, which Andrew Lang translated as gray
eyes and <which somebody interpreted, in a program about Ulysses, as eyes of
the most brilliant blue that <television could produce? Was the sea wine-red
because there was no word for blue? (I've not <seen the Mediterranean, but
I've seen red wine and it's hard to imagine any sea that color or any <shade
of "wine-dark". Maybe unfermented juice of purple or black grapes? Or maybe
on rare <occasions, as during an unusual sunset? Or maybe I don't party
often enough.)
<Mary Krimmel
THE ANSWER :
Hello,
IÂ’m doing a Phd in Ancient History in France : I study the function of
colour in the Greek archaic culture (VIII-VI BC), so I know a few things
about the Homeric question and the question of the meaning of greek colour
terms. I will try to answer the few questions you asked (“try”, because you
raise very complex problems !) :
1- “I have heard that blue is the last color to be named in every language,
but have heard no definite reason why this is so” :
Two American sociologists, Berlin and Kay, have wrote a theory about the
colour terms which do exist in all languages : BERLIN Brent and KAY Paul,
Basic Color Terms, Berkeley-Los Angeles, University of California Press,
1969. They have studied different languages all over the world and have
concluded that when a language have only two colour terms, these are always
black and white ; three colour terms : black, white and red ; four : B, W,
R and yellow or green ; five : B, W, R, Y, G ; six : the colour blue does
appear ; seven : violet ; Â… I donÂ’t remember whether they suggest the reason
for such a sequence. This theory have been criticized because it doesnÂ’t
necessary work with every language. For example, I think you canÂ’t apply it
to Homeric language.
2- “Was there no word for blue when Homer wrote ?” ; “What about Athena's
glaucous eyes, which Andrew Lang translated as gray eyes and which somebody
interpreted, in a program about Ulysses, as eyes of the most brilliant blue
that television could produce?” :
In fact, it does exist two terms in the Homeric poems which can signify
partly what we call “blue” : kyanos and glaukos. The specialists don’t agree
about their exact meaning : in fact, in the ancient periods, people didnÂ’t
have a “scientific” perception of colour, as we have, with precise words to
refer to precise hues. We should remember for example that the discoveries
of Newton are quite recent, and that the choice of the number seven to
encompass the very subtle range of hues you can see in the rainbow is quite
arbitrary (Newton has chosen the number to establish a correspondence with
music). Ancient greek adjectives for colour donÂ’t refer only to hue : they
denote more often the lightness/darkness, texture, movement, and sometimes
sounds and smells, in a kind of synaesthesic process. The affective
connotations play also an important part in the use of the words. So the
translation is a brain-teaser for specialists ! About the meaning of a few
greek colour words, you can read the very good study :
IRWIN Eleanor, Colour terms in Greek poetry, Toronto, Hakkert, 1974, 242 p.
- In Homer, Kyanos refers to a dark blue, which sometimes can appear black.
It denotes power and has strong chtonic connotations. Homer never uses it to
describe the sea (but later other greek poets will).
- Glaukos doesnÂ’t refer to a definite hue : grey, blue, blue-greyÂ… But what
is important is that it denotes lightness, fierceness, and very special
power. AthenaÂ’s eyes are apotropaic.
MAXWELL-STUART P. G., Studies in Greek Colour Terminology, I, Glaukos,
Mnémosyne, Bibliotheca Classica Batava, Suppléments 35, Leiden, éd. Brill,
1981.
3- “The homeric "purpureum" might not necessarily refer to a "wine-red sea"
but to the absence of a word for blue” ; “Was the sea wine-red because there
was no word for blue? (I've not seen the Mediterranean, but I've seen red
wine and it's hard to imagine any sea that color or any shade of
"wine-dark". Maybe unfermented juice of purple or black grapes? Or maybe on
rare occasions, as during an unusual sunset?)” :
The meaning of the formula “porphureos” is a complex question. I don’t think
it is used because there is not a good adjective to describe the colour
blue.
In Antiquity, the purple dye was not of a precise colour : with the murex
you can obtain a great range of colours : from deep blue to bright red. So
it is not surprising using it about the sea, which colour can vary in
function of atmospheric conditions. But the expression doesnÂ’t refer only to
colour : it has a symbolic meaning. The verb “porphurô” signify “to move, to
bubble”. So there is a contamination of the expression, and the adjective
‘porphureos’ convey also this image. Moreover, it has worrying, sinister
connotations (Homer uses it also to qualify death) : for ancient Greeks,
sailing was always something dangerousÂ… They didnÂ’t have the same perception
of the sea we have now.
But what is very interesting, is that the other adjectives Homer uses about
the sea are, apart white (leukos) and grey (polios), violet (ioeis) and “the
colour of wine” (oinops). So there is a strong connection with the idea of a
profound, dark colourÂ…. Perhaps linked to religious connotations (cf :
DARAKI M., «La mer dionysiaque», Revue de l’Histoire des religions, tome
CIC, fasc. 1, Janvier-mars 1982, p. 3-22).
A very good paper was written about this topic by an italian specialist :
FERRINI M. F., “La porpora e il mare”, Atti Istituto Veneto di Scienze,
lettere ed Arti, Clasedi Scienze morali, lettere ed arti, 158 (1), 2000, p.
47-94.
If you are really interested in these questions, I can send a few
bibliographic references moreÂ…
Adeline Grand-Clément
----- End forwarded message -----