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Re: Fwd: Banville and Nabokov/addendum to Athena post
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I can't see what is wrong with this passage if the narrator is one of
Banville's typically unreliable narrators. The 'hear' is a typo. [Btw,
I do not know who posted the original message and who in turn posted the
critique below.] I haven't read this particular novel, either, but I
don't think for one second that Banville was writing in anything but a
deliberately confused voice here. I humbly admit that I'm ignorant
enough of the geography of the USA for the infelicities to have washed
over me. But Banville is simply too intelligent to have made such
mistakes himself. They MUST be the narrator's - don't forget the editors
and fact-checkers! If I am wrong I shall certainly eat humble-pie. I
think there are some cliches here, but, again, I think we probably need
to have read the book to establish whether they are part and parcel of
the narrator's idiom. As for comparisons with Nabokov, I don't think
that we can check off every aspect of Banville's diction against
Nabokov's and necessarily find Banville wanting - if this is inspired by
Nabokov (which it plainly is), it's done in the knowledge that _Lolita_
came first and it cannot be as good as _Lolita_; it can't replace it,
,just conjure a pleasant memory of that work. I hope that the poster
below isn't unduly put off Banville now. I would suggest she/he could
start with _The Book of Evidence_ or _Dr Copernicus_ or maybe _The
Untouchable_.
Brian Howell
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:02:38 -0800, "Donald B. Johnson"
<chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu> said:
> I don't know to whom I am replying -- this last post bears no signature
> --
> and since I've read no Banville other than the specimen quoted below, I
> cannot judge whether Banville or Amis is the contemporary novelist most
> influenced by Nabokov. But the idea that there is some sort of
> competition
> for this title is questionable, and not one that I think Amis would
> welcome
> as a way of analyzing his work. Novelists who are any good get their
> influences under control and go about the business of becoming
> themselves.
>
> There are a number of phrases and narrative devices in Amis's work that
> indicate a high regard for Nabokov. But, Nabokov or not, Amis would still
> have been a novelist. And there is much about Amis's work that Nabokov
> would
> have disliked intensely. Amis certainly knows this, and has held his own
> course all the same. The quote below, whether it's judged as an example
> of
> Nabokovian influence, or simply of Banville's skills as a novelist, is
> unimpressive. I give Banville the benefit of the doubt to the extent that
> what is quoted may, I hope, have simply been badly typed.
>
> How familiar is this narrator with English? "The first time I HEAR of
> Mother she HAD been born in America, in Savannah, or Louisiana, or "some
> other homonymous bayou of the Deep South," into a family OF ANCIENT
> LINEAGE;
> in subsequent accounts, however, the birthplace shifted to Mississippi,
> then
> Missouri, and once even, if my ears did not deceive me, to Missoula,
> which
> my atlas tells me is a town in the Rocky Mountains in the northerly state
> of
> Montana ...."
>
> This sentence is a catastrophe. "The first time I hear of Mother..."
> Does
> this person mean the past tense "heard"? And is it the mother who is
> unclear
> about U.S. geography, or is it Banville? Savannah is a city in Georgia;
> Louisianna is a state. Louisianna has bayous; Savannah does not. Whatever
> a
> "homonymous bayou" may be is a mystery, but it is more than just a casual
> narrative stmble that takes one from the bayou to the high plains of
> Missoula. The confusion over Mississippi, Missouri, and points north
> sounds
> more less like befuddlement on the part of the narrator, planned by the
> author, than it sounds like the ineptitude of an author leafing through a
> school book, looking for some local color. The narrator's atlas says
> (shows,
> rather) that Missoula is a town in Montana. But Missoula is a city in
> Montana. A small point? There are no small points. Writing novels is a
> business of making hundreds of small decisions every day, and of getting
> them right.
>
> "...where I, Melmoth the Bereft, shall journey on that circumferential
> pilgrimage I intend one of these days to undertake in
> search of my lost love..." This may be intended to parody Humbert
> Humbert,
> or it may be an outrageous and unforgivable attempt to ride on Nabokov's
> coat tails, but an homage it is not. Nor is a cliche such as "ancient
> lineage" somehow Nabokovian. "My LOST LOVE ...?" This is a patchwork of
> exhausted phrase-making.
>
> The narrator has heard from his mother that her father was Swiss. Is this
> supposed to make us think of Humbert's father?
> He is "a diplomat is the foreign service ... brought up "all over the
> place." Not exactly a sharp, definitive description. Banville can be
> forgiven if this is intended to be willfully bad, like the short
> autobiography that Jay Gatsby gives Nick Carraway. If not, it's a
> gallimauffery of cliches.
>
> "And indeed, in her sleep she often spoke in what seemed to me foreign
> languages."
>
> Where and how did this dimly imagined vagrant mother pick up these
> "foreign"
> languages? Between Savannah and Missoula? And what are they? Italian?
> Ukrainian? Urdu? Or is it simply English, which Banville seems to have
> picked up from an online corresponence school.
>
> "By the way ... I always take up with restless sleepers." What sparks
> this
> thought? Is the narrator sleeping with his mother? "About Daddy OMINOUS
> HINTS were dropped." These hints, however ominous, seem to amount only to
> Daddy's being a dark, sleek-haired French gentleman sort of fellow,
> "sinisterly" handsome..." Sounds like Rhett Butler. Multi-jeweled watch?
>
> No. Undoubtedly the Nabokovian bit is that this cartoon is "idly fondly"
> (fondling?) a pale little girl perched in his lap."
>
> Please don't tell me the last item is an "homage" to Nabokov. Considering
> that this is such a small sample of Banville's work,
> I will withhold my judgement. It's possible that, if there was some
> humorous
> intent behind these lines, Banville may not be as vague and untalented as
> he
> seems. But I can't say I'm in any hurry to read Athena.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald B. Johnson" <chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu>
> To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Banville and Nabokov
>
>
> > For my money, Banville is a much better example of a contemporary novelist
> who
> > has deeply, and favorably, influenced by VN than the much more celebrated
> > Martin Amis. A much better novelist as well. Banville's most Nabokovian
> > novel is "Athena," which contains many passages that are outright homages
> to
> > VN, including the following:
> >
> > "The first time I hear of Mother she had been born in America, in
> Savannah, or
> > Louisana, or some other homonymous bayou of the Deep South, into a family
> of
> > ancient lineage; in subsequent accounts, however, the birthplace shifted
> to
> > Mississippi, then Missouri, and once even, if my ears did not deceive me,
> to
> > Missoula, which my atlas tells me, is a town in the Rocky Moutains in the
> > northerly state of Montana, to where I, Melmoth the Bereft, shall journey
> on
> > that circumferential pilgrimage I intend one of these days to undertake in
> > search of my lost love. But Missoula! - where on earth did she get that
> from?
> > her father, she said, was Swiss. He had been - I heard it coming before
> she
> > said it - a diplomat in the foreign service, and she had been brought up
> all
> > over the place; and indeed, in her sleep she often spoke in what seemed to
> me
> > foreign languages. (By the way, why is it, I wonder, that I always take
> up
> > with restless sleepers?) About Daddy, ominous hints were dropped; I
> pictured
> > a dark, sleek-haired gentilhomme, sinisterly handsome - see his skier's
> tan,
> > his chocolate-dark eyes, his multi-jewelled watch - idly fondly a pale
> little
> > girl perched in his lap."
> >
> > Banville, "Athena" Vintage paperback, 1996, pp. 122 -123.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
> > Sent: Sat 2/12/2005 5:59 PM
> > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: Banville and Nabokov
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks to Tom and Michael for these interesting connections.
> >
> > Best
> >
> >
> > Brian Howell
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:29:17 -0800, "Donald B. Johnson"
> > <chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu> said:
> > > Although I did not notice Nabokovian echoes in "Shroud", the earlier
> > > companion
> > > novel, "Eclipse", has a clear reference to "Lolita" and perhaps other
> > > Nabokov
> > > works. There is a Lolita-like girl (although no pedophilia) and a ghost
> > > plot
> > > that has parallels to certain theories about Hazel Shade's role in "Pale
> > > Fire."
> > >
> > > For what it's worth, in interviews Banville has acknowledged Nabokov's
> > > influence.
> > >
> > > Tom Walker
> > >
> > > Quoting "Donald B. Johnson" <chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu>:
> > >
> > > > ----- Forwarded message from mmillea@ifone.com -----
> > > > Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:57:20 -0000 (GMT)
> > > > From: Michael Millea <mmillea@ifone.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here is Nabokov-de Man link. Nabokov left Cornell in January 1959,
> and
> > > > Paul de Man, with his newly minted Harvard doctorate, was hired by
> Cornell
> > > > in 1960. Since de Man was a former Nazi and the author of a number of
> > > > shrill, trashy anti-Semitic diatribes, Nabokov, whose views on
> > > > anti-Semitism are well known, probably would have thought he left
> Cornell
> > > > at just the right time.
> > > >
> > > > Although I've never come across any evidence that Nabokov was even
> aware
> > > > of de Man, two of his creations, Professor Hagen and Bodo Falternfels,
> > > > give some indication that he must have bumped into similar postwar
> > > > flotsam.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > > Andrew - you may be right there, though I just read a review and
> > > > > apparently the critic (?) Paul de Man was part-inspiration for the
> > > > > narrator. I wonder if there is a Nabokov-de Man link. That would be
> an
> > > > > interesting connection.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian Howell
> > >
> > > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
> > http://www.windriverpress.com/titles/studyofsleep.html
> > http://www.tobypress.com/books/dance_geometry.htm
> > ? http://www.elasticpress.com/sound_of_white_ants.htm
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
http://www.windriverpress.com/titles/studyofsleep.html
http://www.tobypress.com/books/dance_geometry.htm
http://www.elasticpress.com/sound_of_white_ants.htm
----- End forwarded message -----
Banville's typically unreliable narrators. The 'hear' is a typo. [Btw,
I do not know who posted the original message and who in turn posted the
critique below.] I haven't read this particular novel, either, but I
don't think for one second that Banville was writing in anything but a
deliberately confused voice here. I humbly admit that I'm ignorant
enough of the geography of the USA for the infelicities to have washed
over me. But Banville is simply too intelligent to have made such
mistakes himself. They MUST be the narrator's - don't forget the editors
and fact-checkers! If I am wrong I shall certainly eat humble-pie. I
think there are some cliches here, but, again, I think we probably need
to have read the book to establish whether they are part and parcel of
the narrator's idiom. As for comparisons with Nabokov, I don't think
that we can check off every aspect of Banville's diction against
Nabokov's and necessarily find Banville wanting - if this is inspired by
Nabokov (which it plainly is), it's done in the knowledge that _Lolita_
came first and it cannot be as good as _Lolita_; it can't replace it,
,just conjure a pleasant memory of that work. I hope that the poster
below isn't unduly put off Banville now. I would suggest she/he could
start with _The Book of Evidence_ or _Dr Copernicus_ or maybe _The
Untouchable_.
Brian Howell
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:02:38 -0800, "Donald B. Johnson"
<chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu> said:
> I don't know to whom I am replying -- this last post bears no signature
> --
> and since I've read no Banville other than the specimen quoted below, I
> cannot judge whether Banville or Amis is the contemporary novelist most
> influenced by Nabokov. But the idea that there is some sort of
> competition
> for this title is questionable, and not one that I think Amis would
> welcome
> as a way of analyzing his work. Novelists who are any good get their
> influences under control and go about the business of becoming
> themselves.
>
> There are a number of phrases and narrative devices in Amis's work that
> indicate a high regard for Nabokov. But, Nabokov or not, Amis would still
> have been a novelist. And there is much about Amis's work that Nabokov
> would
> have disliked intensely. Amis certainly knows this, and has held his own
> course all the same. The quote below, whether it's judged as an example
> of
> Nabokovian influence, or simply of Banville's skills as a novelist, is
> unimpressive. I give Banville the benefit of the doubt to the extent that
> what is quoted may, I hope, have simply been badly typed.
>
> How familiar is this narrator with English? "The first time I HEAR of
> Mother she HAD been born in America, in Savannah, or Louisiana, or "some
> other homonymous bayou of the Deep South," into a family OF ANCIENT
> LINEAGE;
> in subsequent accounts, however, the birthplace shifted to Mississippi,
> then
> Missouri, and once even, if my ears did not deceive me, to Missoula,
> which
> my atlas tells me is a town in the Rocky Mountains in the northerly state
> of
> Montana ...."
>
> This sentence is a catastrophe. "The first time I hear of Mother..."
> Does
> this person mean the past tense "heard"? And is it the mother who is
> unclear
> about U.S. geography, or is it Banville? Savannah is a city in Georgia;
> Louisianna is a state. Louisianna has bayous; Savannah does not. Whatever
> a
> "homonymous bayou" may be is a mystery, but it is more than just a casual
> narrative stmble that takes one from the bayou to the high plains of
> Missoula. The confusion over Mississippi, Missouri, and points north
> sounds
> more less like befuddlement on the part of the narrator, planned by the
> author, than it sounds like the ineptitude of an author leafing through a
> school book, looking for some local color. The narrator's atlas says
> (shows,
> rather) that Missoula is a town in Montana. But Missoula is a city in
> Montana. A small point? There are no small points. Writing novels is a
> business of making hundreds of small decisions every day, and of getting
> them right.
>
> "...where I, Melmoth the Bereft, shall journey on that circumferential
> pilgrimage I intend one of these days to undertake in
> search of my lost love..." This may be intended to parody Humbert
> Humbert,
> or it may be an outrageous and unforgivable attempt to ride on Nabokov's
> coat tails, but an homage it is not. Nor is a cliche such as "ancient
> lineage" somehow Nabokovian. "My LOST LOVE ...?" This is a patchwork of
> exhausted phrase-making.
>
> The narrator has heard from his mother that her father was Swiss. Is this
> supposed to make us think of Humbert's father?
> He is "a diplomat is the foreign service ... brought up "all over the
> place." Not exactly a sharp, definitive description. Banville can be
> forgiven if this is intended to be willfully bad, like the short
> autobiography that Jay Gatsby gives Nick Carraway. If not, it's a
> gallimauffery of cliches.
>
> "And indeed, in her sleep she often spoke in what seemed to me foreign
> languages."
>
> Where and how did this dimly imagined vagrant mother pick up these
> "foreign"
> languages? Between Savannah and Missoula? And what are they? Italian?
> Ukrainian? Urdu? Or is it simply English, which Banville seems to have
> picked up from an online corresponence school.
>
> "By the way ... I always take up with restless sleepers." What sparks
> this
> thought? Is the narrator sleeping with his mother? "About Daddy OMINOUS
> HINTS were dropped." These hints, however ominous, seem to amount only to
> Daddy's being a dark, sleek-haired French gentleman sort of fellow,
> "sinisterly" handsome..." Sounds like Rhett Butler. Multi-jeweled watch?
>
> No. Undoubtedly the Nabokovian bit is that this cartoon is "idly fondly"
> (fondling?) a pale little girl perched in his lap."
>
> Please don't tell me the last item is an "homage" to Nabokov. Considering
> that this is such a small sample of Banville's work,
> I will withhold my judgement. It's possible that, if there was some
> humorous
> intent behind these lines, Banville may not be as vague and untalented as
> he
> seems. But I can't say I'm in any hurry to read Athena.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald B. Johnson" <chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu>
> To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Banville and Nabokov
>
>
> > For my money, Banville is a much better example of a contemporary novelist
> who
> > has deeply, and favorably, influenced by VN than the much more celebrated
> > Martin Amis. A much better novelist as well. Banville's most Nabokovian
> > novel is "Athena," which contains many passages that are outright homages
> to
> > VN, including the following:
> >
> > "The first time I hear of Mother she had been born in America, in
> Savannah, or
> > Louisana, or some other homonymous bayou of the Deep South, into a family
> of
> > ancient lineage; in subsequent accounts, however, the birthplace shifted
> to
> > Mississippi, then Missouri, and once even, if my ears did not deceive me,
> to
> > Missoula, which my atlas tells me, is a town in the Rocky Moutains in the
> > northerly state of Montana, to where I, Melmoth the Bereft, shall journey
> on
> > that circumferential pilgrimage I intend one of these days to undertake in
> > search of my lost love. But Missoula! - where on earth did she get that
> from?
> > her father, she said, was Swiss. He had been - I heard it coming before
> she
> > said it - a diplomat in the foreign service, and she had been brought up
> all
> > over the place; and indeed, in her sleep she often spoke in what seemed to
> me
> > foreign languages. (By the way, why is it, I wonder, that I always take
> up
> > with restless sleepers?) About Daddy, ominous hints were dropped; I
> pictured
> > a dark, sleek-haired gentilhomme, sinisterly handsome - see his skier's
> tan,
> > his chocolate-dark eyes, his multi-jewelled watch - idly fondly a pale
> little
> > girl perched in his lap."
> >
> > Banville, "Athena" Vintage paperback, 1996, pp. 122 -123.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Vladimir Nabokov Forum on behalf of Donald B. Johnson
> > Sent: Sat 2/12/2005 5:59 PM
> > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: Banville and Nabokov
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks to Tom and Michael for these interesting connections.
> >
> > Best
> >
> >
> > Brian Howell
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:29:17 -0800, "Donald B. Johnson"
> > <chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu> said:
> > > Although I did not notice Nabokovian echoes in "Shroud", the earlier
> > > companion
> > > novel, "Eclipse", has a clear reference to "Lolita" and perhaps other
> > > Nabokov
> > > works. There is a Lolita-like girl (although no pedophilia) and a ghost
> > > plot
> > > that has parallels to certain theories about Hazel Shade's role in "Pale
> > > Fire."
> > >
> > > For what it's worth, in interviews Banville has acknowledged Nabokov's
> > > influence.
> > >
> > > Tom Walker
> > >
> > > Quoting "Donald B. Johnson" <chtodel@gss.ucsb.edu>:
> > >
> > > > ----- Forwarded message from mmillea@ifone.com -----
> > > > Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:57:20 -0000 (GMT)
> > > > From: Michael Millea <mmillea@ifone.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here is Nabokov-de Man link. Nabokov left Cornell in January 1959,
> and
> > > > Paul de Man, with his newly minted Harvard doctorate, was hired by
> Cornell
> > > > in 1960. Since de Man was a former Nazi and the author of a number of
> > > > shrill, trashy anti-Semitic diatribes, Nabokov, whose views on
> > > > anti-Semitism are well known, probably would have thought he left
> Cornell
> > > > at just the right time.
> > > >
> > > > Although I've never come across any evidence that Nabokov was even
> aware
> > > > of de Man, two of his creations, Professor Hagen and Bodo Falternfels,
> > > > give some indication that he must have bumped into similar postwar
> > > > flotsam.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > > Andrew - you may be right there, though I just read a review and
> > > > > apparently the critic (?) Paul de Man was part-inspiration for the
> > > > > narrator. I wonder if there is a Nabokov-de Man link. That would be
> an
> > > > > interesting connection.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian Howell
> > >
> > > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
> > http://www.windriverpress.com/titles/studyofsleep.html
> > http://www.tobypress.com/books/dance_geometry.htm
> > ? http://www.elasticpress.com/sound_of_white_ants.htm
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
http://www.windriverpress.com/titles/studyofsleep.html
http://www.tobypress.com/books/dance_geometry.htm
http://www.elasticpress.com/sound_of_white_ants.htm
----- End forwarded message -----